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Thread: Wl: Diy

  1. #1
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    Default Wl: Diy

    The masheens are the source for much of our WL: Stuff but many folks have (and likely always will) wonder what Wastelanders can do for themselves. This question is tricky and sometimes divisive. One of the biggest hurdles to this question is also the biggest unknown in the Wastelands - How long has it been? It's difficult, though not impossible, to map out how far a people may have changed without knowing how long it's been (take for example the nonsensical jump in Fallout 2 in which a group of educated vault dwellers and wastelanders regress to full on "naive tribals" in just a generation and a half). Now this probably isn't as important to mutants and ghouls (who may well eat sand and rock for all I know, the hardy bastards) but for humans, most of whom are descended from shelters/bunkers, it is of primary importance. What can we do?

    The wiki tells us that the Wasteland operate with roughly a middle ages level of technology. That's actually great news if taken literally. Turns out, we are years ahead of the tech that built Rome, ancient Greece, and the Pyramids. But that likely wasn't the intention, so we'll dial back the aqueducts, for now. But what it does mean is that we can accomplish most of what the standard issue medieval peasant could accomplish. We can make soap, cure meats, make rope and clothes, and build structures that can withstand the elements; it's all just a question of "how."

    It is unlikely that any one person would know all of the skills that we, as a community, would know but if we pooled our knowledge and skill sets, together we would have a formidable community.

    Now, several of you know that I've been trading in "firewood" (a completely notional RP item) since the Trade Post opened in the Junkyard. We chopped down trees in character and the Wasteland have a lot of fires to feed, so it seemed like a good thing to trade in. Jump ahead a bit and Ironblood, still excited to one day play the Masheener in v2, decided he wanted a blacksmith's forge. He scoured YouTube looking for tutorial videos and what he found was pretty amazing stuff. Then he found stuff for fabric making...and rope...and building a lathe...and he pretty much went nuts with videos. The end result of this experiment has been a huge eye opener for me in that we can accomplish a whole lot with very little.

    So, to this end we've spent a few days (and too much L$) adding "trade skill" stations to the Trade Post. As a hub of trade and activity, it seemed logical to have people plying trade there as well. Weave a blanket and sell/barter it straight away! Each trade skill station has at least one video embedded into it, to teach the player what the character would know. I strongly encourage player to limit themselves to one or two trade skills (if you choose to have any at all) as no one person would have the time to master all of them (as many take years upon years to master).

    For example, Jubal makes tallow candles and some soap (Akiko wants to do bees wax candles, but I want nothing to do with WL: Bees, those assholes give bleed dots!) and is an accomplished scout/tracker, but he can't weave, carve, or work metal (as examples, there's a lot more things he can't do, but listing them all would be a time-sink). Jubal, like most Wastelanders (probably) knows how to use salt to cure and preserve meats, however he can't make salt but Akiko can so they form a trade deal. This is pretty much how a village works.

    So, all that said, I encourage people to create more WL: Original items to represent things made by Wastelanders. Not everyone is a content creator, believe me I know (my candle is a pretty primitive item) but the Marketplace can help if you search for builder packs with full perms items you can mod. I'll be doing my best to create places for the WL: Original Items to distributed with in the Trade Post, to augment the stuff currently available in The Heap (whether you charge or hand out for free, I'll not be regulating).

    For people interested in the tutorials, we've placed videos in the Forge and Anvil, the Water Distiller, the Standing Loom, the Fabric Shelf, the Fabric Table, the Bamboo Rope and Stalks, the Candle Table, and the Tanning Rack. I'm hoping to add a carpentry table (which will probably just link to YouTube user Chop With Chris' page, because his entire catalog is relevant and useful) and a paper making station (which when paired with the tannery will allow us to produce simple books for the library). Other stuff may come later, but for now, this is a start.

    So, please chime in and let me know what we can add and what kinds of items you'd like to see!
    Last edited by JubalQuintus; 01-14-2015 at 05:57 AM.

  2. #2
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    sounds like a good project.

    a usefull item made by the more "primitive" members of the wastes could be chipped glas blades. prety much like flintstone you can chip glas or volcanic glas into razorsharp cutting tools. its no easy task i heared and i imagin them to lose the edge on hard surfaces but its something wastelanders could do.

    adobe can be made from clay and plant fibers. sun dried there a decent building meterial. but if they are burned they get realy hard. the stuff you build towers and walls with

    a tradeing material the witch might be interrested in is black soil. the kind of stuff you can grow plants in. also exotic dirts and minerals have there value to her. mutants dont dig you know.

    she might offer medicine, toxins for pest control or something allong these lines. i have no fitting items yet but if thers interrest i might give it a try.
    I eat your Face.

  3. #3
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    I added Soap Making (available by clicking the crate and ash bucket under the candle station) and the Carpentry Bench which will like expand as I find better mesh tools.

    I love the idea of glass tools, especially blades which could be very useful for surgeons and tanning. Adobe needs to happen soon, because it's such a great idea.

    Anyway, more coming soon!

  4. #4
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    How about a brickyard? A glass blowing station? Both of these could integrate game elements too. People could trade flasks & cinder blocks.

    I always found this guy to be the most industrious person EVER:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/WoodwrightsShop

    Never used power tools. I used to watch him on PBS every week ...
    Last edited by Masaka; 01-14-2015 at 07:44 PM. Reason: no good one ...
    Again make peace,
    Again give pardon,
    Forgive again and again . . .

  5. #5
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    "Medieval peasant" is about right, I've thought, but maybe a little less advanced than that - maybe some more weird gaps in the knowledge. The whole point of not knowing how long it's been since the Fall is to ensure a tabula rasa, after all - as little a connection to the Old World as possible. Whatever we've figured out now, it's new knowledge. I think it's important that there are things we just don't know how to make yet, technologies we haven't yet recreated, things from the past that are still nearly magical - and not just electronics. Things that we still simply have to scavenge from the wreckage and marvel at. That's the key thing that would separate a post-apocalyptic theme from, well, a medieval peasant theme: not just a vague hope that we'll make better things someday, but a knowledge that humanity once created things that are way beyond our skill - so now we use parts of those things entirely out of context.

    The bigger issue, though, is that we're still pretty dang food-insecure, as a whole, and a food surplus is what has traditionally led to what we like to consider "civilization." (If my understanding of history and anthropology is accurate, anyway, which it very well may not be.) Only when the basic needs of food and shelter are met could someone specialize in a trade that isn't just hunting / gathering / shelterbuilding. So that leads me to think that whatever goods we can produce, on our own, would probably be pretty janky. We do still have to spend a lot of our time searching for resources, searching for food, defending our territories, and so on; there's not a lot of safe, thoughtful time that could be used to practice a trade or conduct experiments.

    But, more to the point... I'd like to see parchment-making, personally. I've always been a little unsure of how easily we could make paper - get the fibers from the source, turn the fibers into pulp, screen it, press and dry it... It's harder than it seems! Wood pulp isn't just sawdust. But parchment and vellum could be cool. Only less vellum, and more... iono, wyrmum? That could be part of the fun - deciding which sorts of critters in the Bestiary yield what sorts of membrane, of what thickness and quality.

    You need lime to treat the skins, apparently, though. I'm not sure how or if we could make it. And, again, I'm reticent to just say "Let's assume we can!" We could assume our way to modernity with that. Maybe lime is our technological gap - and why we're not building big architectural whatnots. No cement, no mortar.

    But what would be really cool, and not remotely so hard to figure out... would be paints and inks. How awesome would it be to, say, decide that those little Linden plants actually yield a greenish yellow when you boil the leaves? Or maybe that odd sand kelp yields a sort of indigo! Or that Spikeflowers can yield a potent red-purple ink, when mashed finely and fermented? Or some earth pigments, mixed with... I dunno how well we could extract plant oils for a binder, but there's always egg tempera! http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/intro/tempera.html

    Also, it would be great if we could somehow get away with having these items traded amongst each other... but sold for an exorbitant price in L$. Like... one of Ccindy's glyph paintings on humanskin parchment, yours for L$2000. People always boggle at the cost of a Slugthrower, etc. - but we can just find those things, put them in the Masheen, and get that result. (Suuuure, the price reflects utility and the convenience, but work with me here! I like the idea of these handicrafts being staggering, incredible rarities!
    Whatever shit Wastelanders do, however dirty or bloody or batshit random it is, it comes right from our gritty, fucked up little hearts, and that's beautiful.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aposiopesis View Post
    The whole point of not knowing how long it's been since the Fall is to ensure a tabula rasa, after all - as little a connection to the Old World as possible.
    Unfortunately this is also the biggest misstep in the canon. While a people may not count years, they will always count generations. There is no precedent in this world to support a people not knowing how long ago a thing has been. So while the intent may be for us to have no knowledge of the Old World, it actually causes us to be unable to fully gel our position in the New World.

    The bigger issue, though, is that we're still pretty dang food-insecure, as a whole, and a food surplus is what has traditionally led to what we like to consider "civilization." (If my understanding of history and anthropology is accurate, anyway, which it very well may not be.) Only when the basic needs of food and shelter are met could someone specialize in a trade that isn't just hunting / gathering / shelterbuilding.
    And here ago we've highlighted another problem with canon as it stands. What we have is a settlement however the resources we can collect support a more nomadic lifestyle. In short, besides the machine there is absolutely no reason for people to have settled here. Even when accounting for the machine, it's still a suspension of disbelief to assume that easy access to a machete is enough for people to stay in an area that supplies them with little basic needs. EDIT - This is not a knock on Suspension of Disbelief, which is central to any and all fiction, it's merely highlighting that we have a few suspensions already and those spawn others, in order to create a fully gelled and cohesive world.

    As to tanning, you can do that with salt and smoke and nothing more (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdAocIzADUg). Paper making turns out to be remarkably simple and a three man team in roughly 1300s Europe could churn out 1500+ pages in a day. The biggest requirement is space, so likely the papermill will have to be offsite as the Trade Post is filling up quickly. Bu that said, my vision is not the only vision, I encourage any and everyone to research a thing to find the simplest and easiest method for doing it with the fewest resources and make that your thing, if you want. Parchment can be made one place, paper another, and we would then have more options open to us.

    As to lime, I agree that we need to avoid chemical compounds and complex chemical mixtures. I have taken great pain and researched a lot of techniques for these various things to find the easiest and most basic ways to accomplish these goals. I support adobe over concrete/mortar every day of the week. Though, I think clay bricks are a brilliant idea and one that people should jump at.

    I generally oppose high L$ charges for anything, but what people charge is their business. I think these things should be traded for other things like this. Cc's fancy painting might be worth five crates of soap or two pallets of clay bricks. I think leaving L$ out of things as often as possible is always better for the community but if we feel compelled to charge L$, be modest with pricing. But again, this is merely a personal preference and people should feel free and open to do whatever.

    Dyes, paints, inks are all things I'm wanting to look into but as yet haven't had the time to research. Historically speaking, though, color and art are central to all cultures and 'color' would be something we would strive towards, I think. I was lucky enough to have Ironblood interested in the smithing and fabric making, so I had very little work to do on that myself, but tanning, soap, and candle making has taken a good portion of my free time these past few days, so I haven't been able to look into dyes as yet. Papermaking has been the hardest so far and will ultimately take the most space and LI to place, despite how simple the process is which is why it's on the back burner at current.

    Salt making, which is vital, is the next thing I'm really interested in seeing in world.

    But, I'm loving this feedback. This has the potential to give us a richer world as well as more reasons to RP and have interactions beyond the basic "so, how's the sand today?" and I find that to be very exciting.
    Last edited by JubalQuintus; 01-15-2015 at 05:34 AM.

  7. #7
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    on topic of paper making. historical paper was made of all kinds of viberous materials .. like old unuseable fabric for example. today old fabric is addet in reciled paper caus the vibes tend to break in paper vibes tend to break when being recicles. becomming shorter and shorter untill at the x'threcicling cycle they are so short they wont stick together anymore. so they add fabric and fresh wood vibes to add long vibes into the mix again.

    in terms of pain making. one of the easiest paints is soot with some kind of fatty carier material.
    a lot can be done with colourfull minerals if they are grindet fine and addet to some kind of fatty carier.
    cupper oxide is blueish green (think church rooftop)
    lead oxide is bring yellow
    iron oxide is yellow, organge, red, brown or even dark grey depending on the oxidation process.
    red might be made from flowers or fuits.
    purple is a colour that is not makeable without modern chemitry i think.

    on the topic of concrete.
    i think the romans made there concrete with a mixture of sand, crater ash and water.
    tho somehow i have in my mind that desert sand is not useable for concrete caus of the finenes of the grain and the sharp surface of each individual sandcorn. but im not sure about that
    im prety sure tho that sea sand is bad for reasons of having a lot of salt attatched to it which will damage the concrete from within.
    i think usualy sand from rivers is used for concrete.
    thers a big need for tools in the wastes.
    like shovels for digging out a ruin.

    ppl like high callorie food, specialy when there hungry all the time.
    so perhaps honey, nuts or dried fruits might be of interrest to roleplayers.


    why are the wastes so densely settelt.
    its simple: you are worst off in other places.
    wana live in the open desert, with few food and savages roaming the dunes?
    in the blundered ruins of the oncew big city that might colaps on you,there nothing grows caus the dirt is full of toxins?
    on the water where storms theaten you and unknown horrors are below the waves?
    in the mountains where mutant tribes long established there teretories in the most promising regions?

    no, you stick in between the areas. where you can have the good effects of all regions with relative ease, without suffering there bad side all the time.
    where scrap is so plentyfull that a shift of wind direction uncocers value parts all the time.
    where the sand an substain some kind of plant groth and there is fresh water aviable.
    and remember, thers pleny of scavengers that passed trough over the past 8 years. just some stayed in the place, not willing to search for a better place anymore.
    I eat your Face.

  8. #8
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    Ermahgerd. This is . . . a lot. I guess that's what you get with world-building. A lot. It's going to come down to where each person finds their border into *willing* suspension of disbelief. How far do you want "logic" to take you into an imagined world? It's going to be different for everyone.
    As an anthropologist, I get pedantic and tend to want to go back to, "okay, here's what we know current foragers do, and here's what we believe pre-historic societies did." But that's only so relevant. It's relevant in terms of human relationship to environment. I'm not biological or environmental determinist, but some patterns hold in enough cases so as to present a *more likely*, if not certainly likely, scenario. That said, there is going to be a remembrance of what post-industrical, highly hierarchical society did: created "the fall." How does that hold up on human and non-human imagination, and how does that remembrance affect what society becomes post-post-industrialization? That's the whole point of post-apocalyptic roleplay. What happens post-capitalism? We know what societies are like without capitalism and industrialization, but what does a society borne of those things, but NOT those things, look like? Who knows?! That's why we're talkin'! Then you throw in the technical limits of what's even possible in SL, and you have more rationalization to fit into your RP. So, I offer a few logical places to start, based on current and pre-historic cultural groups. /caveat

    Ok, so. The WL is a settled society (by necessity, we only have so many sims) with few plant resources. Normally, this would result in semi-nomadic societies based on animal herding, nomadic pastoralism. Raising grazing animals takes fewer plant resources. Well, that's not really an option for us in the Wastelands.

    So, other options for settled societies. Now you're looking at something like the modern foragers of Papua New Guinea. Mostly foraging, some hunting, small-scale agriculture, small-scale animal husbandry.

    With all of the specialized trades we're talking about, that introduces another somewhat anachronistic element. You only see trade specialization with entrenched, intensive agricultural societies or industrialized societies. There are a few exceptions. With smaller scale foraging societies, there are examples of some specialists, but most people are generalists. One possible avenue - when foragers become more settled and attached to small garden areas and villages are created, populations tend to grow a little. We're still talking largely egalitarian kin groups, though. So, instead of being able to simply move out of another group's territory, which is what foragers do to avoid fights, villages take on specializations. Different kin groups are now attached to particular areas of land and live closer. Nobody really likes to get killed, so trade patterns emerge based on specializations. Village A knows how to make pottery but not tanned leather. Village B knows how to make tanned leather but not pottery. Village A and B can't piss each other off, because then they'll be shit out of resources they need to survive.

    Speaking of occupational specialization, this is very relevant to creation of "art." Foragers have waaaay more free time than agricultural or industrial or post-industrial societies. Most estimates have foragers spending around four hours per day to fill caloric needs. Most people in foraging societies spend a good amount of time making all kinds of stuff. You only see people categorizing "art" as a separate thing when you see, again, intensive agricultural, industrial, and post-industrial societies. We now imagine "artist" as a trade, not something that everyone can (and should) naturally do. When you spend the average 8-16 hours per day fulfilling caloric needs (eg the workday in agricultural, industrial, and post-industrial societies), "art" becomes a luxury unless you're doing it for your 8-16 hour per day calorie fulfilling job. Not so at all with foraging societies.

    other random thoughts:

    sounds like a good project.

    a usefull item made by the more "primitive" members of the wastes could be chipped glas blades. prety much like flintstone you can chip glas or volcanic glas into razorsharp cutting tools. its no easy task i heared and i imagin them to lose the edge on hard surfaces but its something wastelanders could do.

    adobe can be made from clay and plant fibers. sun dried there a decent building meterial. but if they are burned they get realy hard. the stuff you build towers and walls with

    a tradeing material the witch might be interrested in is black soil. the kind of stuff you can grow plants in. also exotic dirts and minerals have there value to her. mutants dont dig you know.

    she might offer medicine, toxins for pest control or something allong these lines. i have no fitting items yet but if thers interrest i might give it a try.
    all totally legit and really interesting, except obsidian makes for shit bird points and "arrow heads" (which are actually usually spear heads). They're incredibly fragile and shatter almost immediately. Knapping is insanely difficult and time consuming, so you gotta be able to use the shit you make way more than once. Glass is interesting, though, because it's far less time consuming to get sharp edge on. Would also still likely shatter, so you've basically got a low cost explodey bullet. Tons of shrapnel damage. Metal also makes great arrowheads and spear points, and we seem to have lots of metal around.

    As far as toxins, medicines, and as Apo talked about, plant fibers for writing on and pigment - YES. The first thing humans learn about their environment is plants. Everyone in the wastelands would have plant knowledge far more extensive than any post-industrial people. Not to say that some wouldn't still know way more than others.

    Anyway, cos of my anth degree and tons of friends considered Cherokee National Treasures for their "traditional" knowledge, I have a weird amount of brainspace dedicated to methods of making all kinds of stuff. If you have questions about specific technologies, holla atcha gurl.

    Anyway, do with the above what you will. /pedantry
    Last edited by Akiko; 01-15-2015 at 11:28 AM.

  9. #9
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    Also, the timeline for where we are is insane. I mean, we have at least three separate humanoid species in the wastes. With that sort of evolution, even "humans" would no longer be "us" humans, homo sapiens sapiens. So for timeline reference:

  10. #10
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    Homo wastelandis


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