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Thread: Wl: Diy

  1. #21
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    I was just having a nice conversation then people went all aggro! :/

  2. #22
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    (This is a long post and for that I apologize. I prefer brevity if possible, but I've tried to address 2 things - 1. The RP canon criticisms and 2. The original and far more interesting RP skillset concept)

    I second Masaka's suggestion. Misunderstandings easily occur on message boards with just the slightest ill-recieved wrong word or phrase often selectively quoted against each other back and forth as y'all are doing now. I've never seen that tactic of discussion yield satisfying results for anyone involved, but that's probably why I rarely interact on message boards now. I also remind myself of this song lyric in an Uncle Tupelo song, "We quote each other only when we're wrong".

    At points, this thread did contain a couple of critiques of the RP canon that could be read as dismissive or even incredulous in tone and started stepping away from the initially interesting discussion. Neo naturally but generally responded to these critiques defensively, with his own tone. Being outside of it, I can see both sides a little bit. Still, the cycle of quote-vs-quote threatens to derail the whole thing, especially when the language used takes a turn for the worse.

    I'll note that I didn't perceive Neo's comment as shutting anything or anyone down.
    He was responding to and defending against criticism of the RP canon of the Wastelands because it doesn't correspond with our reality, our sense of the passage of time, and our understanding of evolution. His response was trying to remind everyone of the intentions for imagination with our canon, especially its history, relative to that which is known and unknown. We may disagree about the tones of the initial critiques and his response, but I agree with the message and will try to reiterate it.

    Our history is intentionally veiled and mysterious, highlighted by specific factors and events. A few of those events and factors are only aware to current inhabitants via oral history as myths, legends, fables, campefire stories, you-get-the-picture. All such stories have been bent or twisted to suit the needs or audience of the storyteller, each one putting their own touch to the tale, different from another telling the same story, to the extent they probably no longer resemble what actually happened.

    Therefore, our RP canon offers a great deal of freedom to roleplayers for interpreting their little piece of our post-apoacalypse while also establishing certain limits which we've found to be necessary in the often contentious world of SL roleplay (but that's a whole other can-of-worms).

    I'm not saying our RP canon is unyielding and carved in stone. As noted, the RP canon has always evolved and expanded as the Wastelands have grown older, as both an SL estate community and as a storytelling tapestry of sorts, woven from the individual stories and characters made by the community and the larger events which occasionally occur. Sometimes, the things residents do or discuss do have influence on certain ideas we have.

    I'll add that while I'm an architect in RL, I don't go around SL critiquing people's builds based upon my RL experience. Everyone is understandably protective of their creations. Besides, many of my own buildings in SL are structurally suspicious! but that's not the point of why I make things in SL. I make things in SL to spark imagination, my own and hopefully others, but not to adhere strictly to our reality. Our RP canon seeks to do the same.

    The RP canon will probably never clearly identify the timespans of the history and scientifically explain the evolution of manimals and botans and mutants...well...not anytime soon perhaps...unless secrets of the past have a need to be revealed...

    With that said, I'd like to redirect attention to the original discussion...

    Are Wastelanders capable of making stuff for themselves? Absolutely.
    For WL Roleplay, Neo is NOT dismissing this concept for the roleplayers to use to define their characters or relationships. I don't think Neo or I or any other Dev, past or present, who engaged with the RP community at some level would ever dismiss that notion.

    For the Game, we've long been brainstorming ideas and ways to introduce tradeskills into the game, but it's a lot of work and process. The "Fishing" beta-test (still in development) is an early example of beta-tradeskills for the game, and not just another means of providing food. A lot of other ideas were being tested in that beta-test other than just catching fish.

    However, we completely understand that roleplay carries on independently of the game. Certain skills absolutely define our character. My character, The Digger, is hopefully half decent with a shovel and a pickaxe by now and he might be trying to grasp some new construction skills after hanging around those cliff dwellings in Cormac for so long.

    Also, certain members of the RP community have often bartered their skillsets with each other, so I think Jubal's idea of tradeskills as an RP character identity is an excellent idea. The Digger once promised the Witch a barrel of black soil for her plants but he's disappeared into the seas of sand long ago...he better have that for her if he ever comes around again.

    My larger point and offering to the conversation is..yes, I agree that our characters can develop skillsets. I think such skillsets in a post-apoc world, however, would probably be taught in a teacher-student/apprentice relationship. Self-taught skills would be a luxury for someone with the spare time and resources for trail-and-error self-education. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I would factor that in to your character...someone who's very slowly trying to learn how to do 'x' and may not be very successful at it yet (or ever). Even The Digger fucks up some of his ruins when he tries to dig them out.

    There's my food for your thoughts.
    Keep safe sands under foot.
    How many times will the teeth bite the tongue,
    Looking for salvage in the damage that's done?
    - Jay Farrar

  3. #23
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    ohh my .. this realy got a little over board.
    its an issue i encountered a lot of times .. plain text cant deliver tone right.
    im prety sure this last couple of post would not have beenif this conversation happend eye to eye with bodylanguage ann all that. but thats a whole different topic.

    be cool

    on the topic of distilling booze .. thats not so hard. when someone shows you once yu can do it.
    the hard part is making the 'still. thats where things go wrong and might end in desaster.

    so a usefull skill for someone to add to our barter cocktail is pipeworks. not just for brewing but for water transportation or drainage.

    we might be back in the stone age. but its a stoneage with industrial leftovers.
    like in the glass chipping example. glas sure is a worst material than flintstone .. but in a post industrial society its to be found everywear.
    someone must have figured a way how to work with it. and passed it on to a new generation.

    thers a couple of things in the ruins that might be used in similar way like natural resources .. there just easier aviable in this world.

    did you know you can destill petroleum products out of plastic? like "natural gas", gas, disel, lampoil or "tar"
    its not hard to do. its just hard to do it productivly and with the most desired output (like its possibel to get gas, but if just gas is what you want you eigher have to be very experienced or you have a load of byproducs you might not want to have)
    we find plastic but it might actualy be "mined" from landfills or the coast. caus there where the junk ends up being.

    molten plastic might be used as hot glue, like birch tar was used to glue in spearheads.
    I eat your Face.

  4. #24
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    TONE - Please read all of this in and even and calm tone, that's how I write pretty much anything that isn't in all caps or loaded with exclamation points.

    To Neo, it is my belief that nothing is above critique and criticism and you've known me long enough, both on and off of SL to know that I have a critical mind. We may not be close, perhaps we never will be, but I cannot imagine someone not gleaning that about me from my various social media venues. That critical mind does not stop when Jubal logs in and WL: Lore is not a sacred cow to me, nor should it be for anyone. As everyone involved now has said, WL: Lore evolves. It is my opinion, based on my understanding of the best available science, that people would never forget (in general terms) the distance of time they'd traveled. Again, I'm not saying they would have an exact year count, but they would know generally how many ancestors died since X or Y. You can disagree, I'm not gonna push the issue, but never ever expect me to do anything other than speak truth to power (and in WL, you are the power). I bring this up because to be science fiction, you need science in your fiction. If you don't want to be bothered with the science, just be the fiction (Star Trek v Star Wars). If you want the perfect blank slate, throw in a mass amnesia event where people wake up without names, pasts, or knowledge of the world then they can't pass down the basic skills that we would have passed down from day one. Or hell, say that all humans are descended from people in cryo-sleep rather than shelters and one of the unintended side-effects of prolonged cryo-sleep was memory loss. These are both just off the top of my head and I'm not trying to write lore for you, I'm merely providing examples of what is in my head. I understand that the intent of the lore is to put everyone at square one, but I feel the execution requires another pass or two. This is not a personal attack, but it is a critique from one of the few people who will speak to you without trying to tell you what they think you want to hear. I have too much respect for you to simply kiss your ass on anything and that respect drives me to be honest with you about everything I think or feel about the WLs.

    Masaka and Sandusky, I know you both have the best of intentions but when you tell people to check their emotions you are 1) implying tone that may or may not be there and B) dismissing their right to have said emotions and passions. Let's all respect each other as adults and accept each others emotions and passions.

    Sandusky, you make a good point about how any and all internet communication can devolve into passive/aggressive sniping and I'm taking those words to heart as I carry on here. As to the self taught skills, I think that some people would have some self taught skills and others would have skills passed down from their families/societies. Primarily I was looking to explain things that I find curious; example - I see lots of candles around the Wastelands and I think that's great but I got to wondering, where do they come from? I spent a few hours researching candle making and found out it's holyshit easy to make candles. This is probably a skill many people would have learned from their family groups, passed down since their ancestors huddled up in a bunker, shelter, cave, whatever. In learning about candles I learned about soap, which is produced in pretty much the same way with like two extra steps. So both of those things make perfect sense to me. With the Library going in, I thought I'd look into paper production, since we've (Earth Humans) had paper since forever, maybe it wasn't so hard to make. Turns out it's really not hard at all, a little time consuming but the resources and effort put in are fairly easy and rote. So the whole RP Trade Skill (or WL: DIY as I've been calling it) was born from that. But, the whole thing is getting a bit of blow-back from the "we should know nothing at all" crowd, which I find a fascinating phenomenon. Wastelanders are the hardest of the hard, descended from people who survived several Ages of Hell on Earth. They would be adaptable, hardy, fit, and capable having scraped out an existence their entire lives.

    So, on topic, if you look around the Wastelands you see a wide variety of Things. My goal is to help explain How those Things came into being (so long as those Things are not blatant ignorances of the canon, like an operational main-frame computer or helicopter or something). So the goal is to determine what can be made with roughly Middle Ages level tech in the Wastelands setting and as I've said previously, it turns out the answer is "a lot" so why not incorporate it into our RP and builds?

  5. #25
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    I'm not sure how many times I can repeat that 1. I <3 the estate, exactly how it is and am in awe of everything that people have built there, 2. I thought we really were just having a conversation about possibilities. If I meant to "critique canon" I would have specifically done so. I'm anything but passive aggressive. For example, if anything, pointing out that evolving different species takes millions of years would only add strength to canon in the "intentionally veiled and mysterious, highlighted by specific factors and events" aspect. 3. I'm not using my RL experience to try to limit or critique what anyone is doing OR to suggest we "stick to reality." I've never critiqued anyone's build or RP, but I've definitely had mine policed. My intention with talking about my RL experience, is, well, refer to the second point above. I like talking about human imagination and possibility with like-minded people. I thought that's what was happening.

  6. #26
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    Would it help to move this conversation to another forum? Like, the general IRL Post-Apocalypse stuff one? Because I'd really like to continue the conversation about the stuff we were talking about. Particularly Apo's points about Neanderthals. I've been thinking about that a lot.

  7. #27
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    All right, so I guess I'll finally toss my two scrit in.
    A few days ago, maybe a week give or take a couple days I decided that I'd like to start seriously RPing in the estate I've loved and been a part of for the last 8 years. Besides, all the cool kids RP

    Looking for ideas on how or why or what Ironblood as a WL: personality could do for roleplay ('cause "hey Bob how was your day" kind of RP seems kinda boring to me) I decided to start my search in the best place I could think of, THE WASTELANDS WIKI of course! Spying the RP category I read the following:

    "Setting
    The Wastelands is a semi-realistic post apocalyptic area. There are NO supernatural powers or beings. For the things that are weird and sort of "out there," we try to base them on our real world examples. For instance, the Botan race could be evolved carnivorous plants, and Ghouls could easily be explained by an advanced form of the cordyceps fungus. Technology can, at best, be described as the Middle Ages -- but instead, made from the remnants of a once-advanced culture. Think of it as if it were the middle ages, but all the resources were made from recycled goods: Junk-Punk if you will."

    So, Middle ages with scavenged junk. Sounds neat, so I started looking into what kind of stuff people did and how they lived in the middle ages and started finding all sorts of cool medievel type stuff but including old junk in it as well (the forge made form a disk brake and an old lawnmower housing for example)! In my excitement I started spamming Jubal with you tube links about lots of trade skill type stff.

    I guess MY personal misunderstanding is that the wiki says to think of the wastelands as the middle ages with recycled and upcycled junk, but for some reason it seems that people tend to think that means stone ages or worse level of understanding as the norm.

  8. #28
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    i understand it as medival tech being the peak of originaly made items (more modern tech stuff perhaps might be repaired?) but i would not see it as the only tech aviable. depending on the way of living of the group "older" tech might be aviable. leke stoneage like stuff. but not limited to that at all.
    I eat your Face.

  9. #29
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    We had a great DIY based RP yesterday. Cc stopped by to get some of the Junkyard soil I'd promised her, which later lead to PanPot and I trying to push phys barrels to the mutie hq (we had to abandon that and just walk over there, as the sim was not pleased with phys objects last night). The Witch was also looking for some other DIY based goods which Jubal used as a chance to get at some mutie medical care for his [self diagnosed] case of sand lung.

    All in all we had about two to two and a half hours total of focused RP based on daily life stuff, nothing world shattering or massive but not all RP has to change the world either. These little interactions that have purpose and go beyond a social calls help us (to my mind at least) flesh out our characters and their motivations and personalities a bit more.

    Plus they give the Witch the chance to play pranks on naive smoothskins.

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