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Thread: Wl: Diy

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akiko View Post
    Also, the timeline for where we are is insane. I mean, we have at least three separate humanoid species in the wastes. With that sort of evolution, even "humans" would no longer be "us" humans, homo sapiens sapiens. So for timeline reference:
    I think that, too, is part of the idea. Look at Cormac. That, so far as I know, is meant to be a Mutant civilization that's been and (almost entirely) gone. It's been long enough that there've been other, smaller, more local Falls. Look at the Bestiary - there are Sandworms and Bird Dragons and Rocs, creatures that are either A) alien, because we're actually on a failed colony of an exoplanet or something, or B) developed / mutated after the Fall.

    But part and parcel of not being precisely Homo Sapiens anymore is that we don't have to be stuck with human anthropology concepts. The world of The Wastelands doesn't necessarily work like Earth. What has worked on Earth in the past may or may not have worked in the years following the Fall. Social dynamics themselves may have worked differently. It's, well, still science fiction at heart - not historical fiction or political fiction. We don't know exactly how Mutants arose, or Manimals, or Ghouls, or Botans, and the point of leaving it unclear is precisely so people don't get bogged down -- in-character OR out -- in trying to justify them. We don't know, and instead of having textbooks upon textbooks of legitimate historical analysis devoted to making it "make sense" to a modern-day human scholar, we just accept that we don't know, accept that it is how it is, and go on with figuring out how to interact with this world.

    The logic of food was never an issue earlier, because we didn't have actual game-resource food; we just handwaved it, assuming there was scarcity but that we were doing enough to get by. Hunting the critters in the Bestiary - slaughtering Sand Hippos, bringing a whole Bird Dragon back to the clan, etc. Now that there is game-resource food, and a clear -lack- of it for a population our size, it makes things more difficult to explain, sure. But I see this less as a problem with the canon, and more as a problem with how well the gameplay reflects that canon. In time, as the gameplay comes to reflect things more - more huntable critters, for example - I think it will come back in line with the stories we've been telling ourselves.

    But I think Ccindy's comments on why we'd settle here are valid - simply put, everywhere else is worse. Also, there's the Masheens, which are a HUGE deal. Like... hugely huge. We have a Masheen that heals us. You can be on the brink of death, but standing near it makes you feel healthy again. Who in the world would ditch that? (Granted, I preferred it when our healing came only from Medkits, which themselves came from the Masheens, but still. Medkits here, or rags, herbs, and hope somewhere else?)

    It would be neat to think more about how we live off the land. But the world is still meant to be ruined and fairly barren, leading us to very often rely on what we can scavenge from the Old World. If we can get by well enough - or better - without scavenging and reusing what we find, I think it would compromise what it means to be "post-apocalyptic."
    Whatever shit Wastelanders do, however dirty or bloody or batshit random it is, it comes right from our gritty, fucked up little hearts, and that's beautiful.

  2. #12
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    I dunno, man. That reactions seems seriously, like, monolithic. And not in the spirit of community world-building. If we're supposedly going in some sort of wrong direction by talking all this through, then what's a right direction?
    Last edited by Akiko; 01-15-2015 at 04:34 PM.

  3. #13
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    So I just had a nice long comfy bath, which is an awesome place for thinking about ridiculous things. And I realized that we're totally living in the post-apocalypse, anyway: not that of Homo sapiens, but that of Homo neanderthalensis. Those dudes made hand-axes and cooked food and made homes out of mammoth bones and made jewelry and used paints, and might have been more "advanced" than Homo Sapiens at the time. But they're gone - probably killed and supplanted, which I think is considered more likely than the "interbreeding until there was no distinction at all" theory? Regardless - that whole line of sentient creatures and culture - gone.

    How much of what H. sapiens learned was just them scavenging from the ruins of H. neanderthalensis?
    Whatever shit Wastelanders do, however dirty or bloody or batshit random it is, it comes right from our gritty, fucked up little hearts, and that's beautiful.

  4. #14
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    Ahhhh, that's a freakin fantastic point of view! I <3 H. Neanderthalensis! They get so little cred. They cared for the infirm, buried their dead and, according to everything we know about speech anatomy, most likely had language. There was significant interbreeding, though (I'm nearly 4% neanderthal DNA myself!), but it may not be enough to account for extinction. They were limited to modern Europe, though, while H. sapiens was spread from Africa to Asia and the Pacific Islands (how THE FUCK did they get there, seriously!) at nearly the same time that Neanderthals were limited to Europe. There was definite cultural (and genetic) exchange, but scavenging from Neanderthals - that's, wow, complicated. The only evidence of "culture" (as a super super simple concept) that we have from Neanderthals are pollen in burials (which some argue indicates burial while some argue indicates fucking accidental plants blown onto bodies) and possibly cave paintings. But rock art occurred ALL OVER! the world before and after H. neanderthalensis, and in places their culture couldn't have reached. Damn, nature. You crazy.

  5. #15
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    Blah, blah, blah -- science and logic of this world, earth as we know it -- blah! (I'm not trying to be crazy dismissive of this whole thread, but I wanted to get the readers attention) We're about to turn 8 in a couple of days, and that reflects on how far the community as a whole has come. All of the RP canon and lore we have so far has been built upon what we've had in place for 8 years. Why change it? Why try to limit ourselves by defining WHAT exactly happened as far as time is concerned? Why define the unknown and take the magic away? The beauty of everything that we have now is due to just "running with it". Let's not change that ever.

    The reason why We as devs chose "the blank slate" and a complete loss of the past for our RP lore -- is because a place that is in complete ruin and decay, that leaves no trace of who or what it was, allows us to define ourselves in the here and now. The lack of fully understanding allows us to describe things as each individual understands them. The melting pot that is all the cultures in WL:RP Lore, already seem to have wild and crazy explanations for what we already have.

    Who is to say that humanity as we know it right now, isn't already the result of a post-apocalyptic civilization that our modern science can't even perceive? I think to compare the RP Wastelands to the modern world for anything other than inspiration for the zany "psuedo-logic" that we have now, is to take a step away from the core fundamentals of our RP lore. We certainly aren't high fantasy, and we certainly aren't ZOMG-Real-Science, but we're greatly inspired by the world around us. The world as we already know it, is completely alien on it's own. Even then we really don't understand everything, especially the previous great extinctions that we weren't around for.

    I know we say we don't enforce RP as Devs, but at the very least we at least try to steer the ship. Sure all the passengers continues to have interactions with each other and the things they could find in the middle of the ocean. But the ship is the ship, and it's going to a destination.
    The Fool is the spirit in search of experience. He represents the mystical cleverness bereft of reason within us, the childlike ability to tune into the inner workings of the world. The sun shining behind him represents the divine nature of the Fool's wisdom and exuberance. On his back are all the possessions he might need. In his hand there is a flower, showing his appreciation of beauty. He is frequently accompanied by a dog, sometimes seen as his animal desires, sometimes as the call of the "real world", nipping at his heels and distracting him. He is seemingly unconcerned that he is standing on a precipice, apparently about to step off.

  6. #16
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    Why is this so contentious all of a sudden? I'm having a great time talking with people who have the same interests and tossing out ideas about world building. I'm definitely not interested in being policed or dismissed just for voicing ideas. I'm obviously in no place to police anyone's imagination. I'm discussing things I thought we were all interested in. No one's "changing" anything. We're just talking. But yeah, I definitely LOVE paying tier to people who come along all of a sudden and say they're "trying not to be crazy dismissive" of people who love the place the devs have built - and love it so much they spend time thinking about its possibilities. For real, though, I love what you guys have built, and I am so glad to have found a community of people to talk with. But I am not about to continue giving $50 a month to someone who has to restrain himself from being "dismissive" about what I, or any of the other community members, have to say, especially when it's just shooting the shit. Not cool. Nearly inexcusably (and totally unnecessarily!) disrespectful.
    I've spent crazy time (and obvs spending crazy money) on the wastelands (THIS wastelands, specifically), and I'm right now spending days and hours even making a stupid freaking streaming video list of shit to play for the birthday, cos I'm so stoked about the estate. Why bother. Especially if the devs are going to even come onto a random forum thread and shut people down publicly.
    Last edited by Akiko; 01-15-2015 at 06:49 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoBokrug View Post
    Blah, blah, blah -- science and logic of this world, earth as we know it -- blah! (I'm not trying to be crazy dismissive of this whole thread, but I wanted to get the readers attention) We're about to turn 8 in a couple of days, and that reflects on how far the community as a whole has come. All of the RP canon and lore we have so far has been built upon what we've had in place for 8 years. Why change it? Why try to limit ourselves by defining WHAT exactly happened as far as time is concerned? Why define the unknown and take the magic away? The beauty of everything that we have now is due to just "running with it". Let's not change that ever.
    Fact is, the point of this entire thread is to help "run with it." People have needs that aren't met by the salvagers and we've always RP'd around that, to explain this or that. I want to see those things represented in world, to help explain why people have the things the want to have rather than having to say "well, I can't ever wash my face because LOLpocalypse."

    If every other person in the Wastelands knows how to distill booze, we all know a lot more other shit (that is arguably more useful).

    This thread and the idea behind it is to pool ideas to expand the scope of our community in order to represent the things that we already accept as existing (and have for these 8 years). However, a simple idea like this is being met with a strange form of resistance that is using canon/lore (which is deliberately vague, as we all have pointed out, yourself included) as a shield for what has been 8 years of community agreement. So either we are all about logic or we are all about running with it, but from where I sit, we waffle between the two depending on which idea we're attempting to shut down at the time.

    So maybe we just run with it more and stop shutting people down for ideas that fit theme even if they don't fit with certain people's interpretation of theme and then no one has cause to post red faced replies to simple community development thread on the forum?

    See? Now I'm using run-on sentences! DAMN!

  8. #18
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    With my previous post, I'm not trying to shut down discussion or stomp on peoples RP. Maybe you read my response with the wrong inflection? I dunno. I'm mostly addressing this, which has stemmed a lot of the current discussion:

    Quote Originally Posted by JubalQuintus View Post
    Unfortunately this is also the biggest misstep in the canon. While a people may not count years, they will always count generations.
    When you critique the core foundations of the RP that we've had going on for 8 years, I do have an opinion on it.

    Ccindy has the right idea.
    Last edited by NeoBokrug; 01-15-2015 at 08:21 PM.
    The Fool is the spirit in search of experience. He represents the mystical cleverness bereft of reason within us, the childlike ability to tune into the inner workings of the world. The sun shining behind him represents the divine nature of the Fool's wisdom and exuberance. On his back are all the possessions he might need. In his hand there is a flower, showing his appreciation of beauty. He is frequently accompanied by a dog, sometimes seen as his animal desires, sometimes as the call of the "real world", nipping at his heels and distracting him. He is seemingly unconcerned that he is standing on a precipice, apparently about to step off.

  9. #19
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    Maybe you read my response with the wrong inflection?
    No, man, you can't pass it off as a loss of inflection when you say things like
    Blah, blah, blah -- science and logic of this world, earth as we know it -- blah! (I'm not trying to be crazy dismissive of this whole thread,
    If you've got a specific issue, say it specifically, like you did now with quoting Jubal's assertion. I'm certainly not critiquing the core foundations of the RP you and the community around the WL have had going for 8 years. I'm being part of it. I've read the wiki; it's evolved, with people who've come on board. That's how it's survived and how it will survive. An excellent foundation and attracting dedicated, involved RPers. Just don't get so defensive you alienate good people, man. I'm not throwing out dollar amounts to be spiteful, either. I'm not rich - a dollar amount I put into the wastelands means an intellectual, emotional, real life investment that I'm putting here and taking from somewhere else - because I think what you've made is worth that investment. I'm obviously not getting a monetary return on this kind of investment. It's because I think YOU Neo and the devs and the community here are worth thought and energy, that's worth more to me than money (that I will repeat, I don't have a lot of). Don't fucking disrespect that.
    Last edited by Akiko; 01-15-2015 at 08:57 PM.

  10. #20
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    "I'm not trying to be crazy dismissive of this whole thread, but I wanted to get the readers attention" (emphasis mine).

    /me thinks everyone should chill and enjoy the greatness that will transpire in less than 24 hours - jus' sayin' ...

    Peace
    Again make peace,
    Again give pardon,
    Forgive again and again . . .

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